Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of the L

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Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of the L

Postby frasersi@btinternet.com » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:17 pm

Hi

As promised in the article I have opened the topic on this forum. I have had several replies to my email and note that the RV chat site has a lot of dialogue. One of the key issues many dont seem to consider is that there are 2 ends to any conspicuity event. The beacon must transmit in all directions and the receiver must receive from the direction of interest. For example, it is all very well saying my Pilot aware device is seeing lots of contacts therefore it is working and peole can see me. PA's receiver is great at picking up ADSB transmissions over quite long ranges but from what I can gather sees very little of the P3i beacons that are out there. That is not a point about PA's perfomance, it is a comment about all EC devce performance. Nobody actually knows how well any of them perform so how do we know if they work all round, or as I suggest, just out of the window. One of the points that this topic could contribute to is how well these things work. Any comments

Ian F
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby tnowak » Thu Feb 08, 2018 9:33 am

Ian,

Have you visited the PAW website?
Lots of info/comment on there about ideal location of antennas to maximize electronic "visibility" and minimize blanking/screening.
Tony
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby Rob Swain » Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:23 pm

frasersi@btinternet.com wrote:I have had several replies to my email and note that the RV chat site has a lot of dialogue.

What 'RV chat site'?

URL please.

The PilotAware forum has a thread on this subject too.
http://forum.pilotaware.com/index.php/topic,1172.0.html
Comments on that forum are pretty well always technically correct, or very soon get corrected by some very technically savvy people.
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby k.vinning@ftel.co.uk » Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:42 am

frasersi@btinternet.com wrote: PA's receiver is great at picking up ADSB transmissions over quite long ranges but from what I can gather sees very little of the P3i beacons that are out there. That is not a point about PA's perfomance, it is a comment about all EC devce performance. Nobody actually knows how well any of them perform.

Ian F


Ian in this post you have said from what I can gather sees very little of the P3 I beacons out there
What tests have you done and in what aircraft have you done them substantiate this claim?

The tests that we have done at PilotAware over the last 3 years prove otherwise. We have done extensive tests using LAA BMAA and AOPA members flying, metal, composite, rag wings and microlights of all flavours. For example even we were surprised when a jabaru with a PilotAware carry on was being detected at 40km and not part of the test fleet.

You are correct that positioning of antennas and or the unit when used as a carry on is important and as others have pointed out we provide advice on this on a our website.

Pilotaware is a company providing low cost high functionality products for the flying community and we welcome feedback from anyone on our forum [url]forum.pilotaware.con[/url] however please when claims are made will you please back them up with evidence.

May I respectfully request, have you tried PilotAware in any aircraft to substantiate your claims?

Keith Vinning
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby Ian Melville » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:35 am

Adding to Keiths point.

There is a lower number of PilotAware units out there compared with the number of ADSB in the heavy metal. I used to go for flights1 and not see any P3i, which made testing difficult. Now I am seeing one of two on most flight.

Note 1: If you filter out all the high level ADSB contacts, the number of GA aircaft with ADSB is very low. Oxfords traffic being a major contributor to the numbers. It is the Mode S, Mode C and those with no transponder that we need to encourage to fit EC. Many of these are rented club aircraft. Waiting for the perfect solution compounds the problem.
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby PaulSS » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:46 pm

Having just read the article I'd like to point out a fairly glaring error in your table. Yes, it is true that P3I cannot 'see' ADSB, CAP 1391 etc but the PAW unit does more than just transmit and receive on 896 MHZ (P3I); it also receives on 1090 MHZ. SO, it can 'see' ADSB In and CAP1391 (I'm assuming they're just low power transmitters on 1090 MHz). Those two fields should be green on your table.

I don't know why you chose you leave out Mode C/S, as many aircraft actually do have that equipment and they certainly count as EC. Moreso when you consider that Pilot Aware can give you alerts based on the signal strength of those transmissions. EC is not just about equipment that transmits your GPS position.

With the growing number of OGN stations around the country, re-transmitting FLARM data which is received on the P3I frequency, it is also becoming increasingly possible to see more gliders. The FLARM field should be yellow (combination of green and red.....gusting green).

You say you have a Mode S transponder. Well, one wire will take the GPS signal from your PAW box (much less than £250) to your transponder and now you have your ADSB Out, as well as In.

You've got a metal, LAA aircraft. Almost nothing could be easier than installing a couple of antennas (one for ADSB In and one for P3I In/Out). It would be nice to have super-powerful P3I transmissions but the OFCOM regulations prevent that, so that's a big 'ask' on your job list.

Displaying the PAW information is easy. You can WIFI it to your tablet/phone and either superimpose the data over Sky Demon etc etc or, if you don't have one of those navigation apps (no excuse given Easy VFR is free), then you can have a radar display. If you have an EFIS then the same data can be displayed on those, with minor jiggery-pockery.

Finally, audio. Yes, PAW has a 3.5mm jack which can input audio to your audio panel/some radios. If you have a bluetooth capable headset, then a BT transmitter can be bought very cheaply, which simply plugs into the 3.5mm plug and re-transmits the audio, thereby freeing up the audio input to the audio panel/radio. Even better is the news that Sky Demon will be outputting vocal audio, so there is not even a need for a BT transmitter if you have the SD app and connect your headset to your tablet via Bluetooth.

There are still plenty of challenges to get the best reception of signals and it is very true that without multiple aerials there will be dead zones around the aircraft. I very much look forward to anyone solving that problem.
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby Rob Swain » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:06 pm

PaulSS wrote:You say you have a Mode S transponder. Well, one wire will take the GPS signal from your PAW box (much less than £250) to your transponder and now you have your ADSB Out, as well as In.

I agree with pretty well all you say, Paul.

One thing, though... a number of early mode S transponders (mentioning no names, like Garmin) are not ES (Extended Squitter), a.k.a. ADS-B, capable.
Some are updatable for this capability but at very near the cost of buying a new fully capable transponder from another, British manufacturer (again mentioning no names, like Trig, who offered free upgrades on their early mode S, non-ES transponders).

If Mr. Fraser does have an ES capable transponder without a GPS connection then your point most definitely applies.

One last thing - PilotAware (PAW) is just under £200 complete and delivered for the first year.
Less that the price of filling a certain RV-6 with Avgas just once. :lol:
Subsequent year's licenses are about £15.

I and a number of my chums at Sleap all have PilotAware and all agree it is a great addition to the Mk1 eyeball, especially when we have flyouts together following similar routes. Often we spot each other on the screen and take suitable action when we don't actually see each other visually at all.
PAW is especially useful during the week around our neck of the woods as the Shawbury military helicopter school aircraft are now ADS-B equipped.
Rob Swain
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby PaulSS » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:45 pm

One thing, though... a number of early mode S transponders (mentioning no names, like Garmin) are not ES (Extended Squitter), a.k.a. ADS-B, capable.


Yes, very good point, Rob. I'd forgotten that early Mode S transponders lacked the ES as all the new ones have it (and I've bought one that sounds like 'twig'). :D

The RV4 that I fly has the auxiliary tanks, so a total of 180 litres. That's a lot of PAW EC :shock:
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby Rob Swain » Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:49 am

frasersi@btinternet.com wrote:I have had several replies to my email and note that the RV chat site has a lot of dialogue.

Ian.

I will ask again.
What 'RV chat site'?
URL / web address, please.
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby frasersi@btinternet.com » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:05 am

Hi Keith

Thanks for your comments.

My comment about P3i performance was gleaned from a discussion with 5 owners several of whom fly together. When asked, “did you see one another” they said no. Maybe they didn’t look hard enough but, its just an observation on my part.
EC is about seeing and being seen. There are 2 ends to each “visibility event”. The beacon in one aircraft and the receiver in the other. They both have to work effectively in the threat scenario. The question I asked in my article (written as a potential customer, not a reviewer or tester) was “how well do these things work”? My frustration is that I can find no performance information out there about any of the systems let alone PA. Do you have any performance information on PA as a system. What is its coverage? What range can I reliably expect? That is key to me. I am not really interested in enhancing vision, I want an alert from my blind spots For me that means my receiver should look forward and down from the nose but the other aircraft should be radiating upwards and to the rear. Will your device do that?

Ian F
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby frasersi@btinternet.com » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:09 am

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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby PaulSS » Wed Feb 14, 2018 1:46 pm

I suspect this is the link, rather than the email address above:

http://www.rvuk.co.uk/news.php
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby k.vinning@ftel.co.uk » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:49 pm

Hi Ian

For me that means my receiver should look forward and down from the nose but the other aircraft should be radiating upwards and to the rear. Will your device do that?


Yes I understand this would be the requirement for a low wing, like your RV and My Sportscruiser, and that this would then be somewhat the inverse for a high wing.

At the moment we haven't come across any real requirement. I guess that we could look at diverse antennas. Not sure how many EC devices do this. I understand that FLARM can be upgraded to do this to assist gliders do a lot of turning and their antennas are generally inside the aircraft to keep the sleek gliders aerodynamically clean.

Generally with PilotAware we first detect suitably equipped aircraft at about 20km and then keep an electronic eye on them as they get closer. When in close proximity it really is the PIC who has the responsibility to keep a look out as many forumites let us all know. This is how electronic conspicuity aids situational awareness. Alert, See and be Seen. This is how we do it do it on PilotAware first with a voice alert, then a visual alert and then you make the decision to act.

Remember to keep an eye, or two, out for those things that are not transmitting anything. Fly Save

Keith
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby ericoni » Tue May 29, 2018 8:08 pm

Hi all,

I'm a gyrocopter owner (Calidus) and am looking at PAW as additional support for keeping a good look out.

I don't profess to know my way around the back of an instrument panel sufficiently to attempt to connect it in to my Funk transponder though.

Does anyone know someone/where that could help me install it?

And Rob - I'm a member at Sleap as well as at Clench Common. Perhaps I could arrange a Mk 1 natter when you're free?

Cheers,

Paul
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Re: Electronic conspicuity article from the Feb edition of t

Postby tnowak » Wed May 30, 2018 8:15 am

Paul,

Try posting you request for help on the PAW forum:
http://www.forum.pilotaware.com/index.php

Lots of info and assistance available there.

Tony
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